Ep 84: What Happens After Reunification?
Episode 84
Published Jun 10, 2024
Last updated Feb 18, 2026
Duration: 23:02
Episode Summary
The shooter has been stopped. The last patient has been transported. The survivors have been reunited. Now what? This question can be planned and prepared for in advance so that your community can start to recover.
Episode Notes
An active shooter event impacts not only the survivors but the entire community. While reunification is a crucial part of the response process, on-going needs must be addressed for the community to recover. Engaging in conversations in advance can help us better manage the aftermath.
View this episode on YouTube at https://youtu.be/i2zyq53_SAo
Transcript
Adam Pendley:On that terrible day when we've had an active shooter event with multiple families impacted, we know that we have done many jobs to save lives, to reunify families and to give good information. But what happens after that? That's what we're gonna talk about next. Stay tuned.
All right, welcome to the National Center for Integrated Emergency Response, NCIER. I have two of our great instructors here, Bruce Scott is rejoining us here from the fire service. Welcome, Bruce.
Bruce Scott:
Thank you, Adam.
Adam Pendley:
And I've got Kami Maertz here as well from law enforcement.
Kami Maertz:
Yep.
Adam Pendley:
She's back in the studio to help us talk about kind of an important topic, I think.
Kami Maertz:
Absolutely.
Adam Pendley:
And again, I'm Adam Pendley, I'll be the host for today's podcast and I have a law enforcement background as well.
So we are gonna talk a little bit about something that even goes beyond that initial active shooter incident response. Our incident management is... We've had our community impacted, right? Bruce, we've talked about this a lot that when we face one of these incidents, it's not a just a police problem, a fire problem, an EMS problem, it's what?
Bruce Scott:
A community problem.
Adam Pendley:
It's a community problem. And we know that many, many people in our community are gonna be hurting. We have transported injured people, we've gotten them to the hospital. We may have those that are deceased at the scene. We have a criminal investigation to worry about. And the community has been deeply impacted. You read stories all over the country that some of these scenes are at places that were community centers and now how do we recover from that? And so we're gonna talk a little bit about how we lead up to reunification. We're gonna talk a little bit about reunification, but then what comes after reunification?
So Kami in your training and your experience and critical incidents in general. How early on in the response are you starting to think about reunification?
Kami Maertz:
So in a command level, you're gonna be starting to think about that fairly early, right? So you're going to have all of your uninjured that are going to have to be taken somewhere to be reunified with their families. And so that's gonna be a process you're gonna wanna start early 'cause you have to start considering the size of the location that you need, the resources that you're gonna need that are gonna be at that site location, food, bathrooms, all of those kind of things. And so those are decisions that are gonna happen early on.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. And does fire and rescue have a much of a role in reunification?
Bruce Scott:
Well, obviously we have a role because it's a community problem.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
We're all partners, right? So wherever we're needed, the fire service is gonna be in 100%.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So I think it's depends on the situation or reunifying a school, you know, a public place. There's a lot of things going to the decision. But once we set up reunification, whatever is needed, public safety's gonna have a role.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
We talk about that all the time. We say, "Well, the school's got a plan." Well, the plan never survives first contact, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So we want to have the ability as public servants to be able to fill in any roles necessary.
Kami Maertz:
And you dealing with a lot of trauma too, so it's also important for public safety in case somebody has a medical episode at that reunification to be there.
Bruce Scott:
Yeah, 100%. And it always happens, right? Somebody's got chest pain, somebody's got an asthma attack, some sort of allergic reaction. But also more important there, I think, is to understand, we've been trained now as first responders to look at ourselves as well, look at our partners and more, you and I work together, we understand the stress that you're going through. We can look out for each other while all that's happening as well.
Adam Pendley:
Right. Absolutely. And when we talk about reunification, understanding accounting for all of our survivors and who may have been transported and who may have been interviewed and those sort of things. Each law enforcement and fires keeping that information. And really, we know from experience that the fire or EMS, the transport side, them getting names and where they've been transported to is our best hope to be able to track everybody down that's been impacted. So that information is critical.
Bruce Scott:
And the truth is, there's a really good chance that ambulance crew doesn't know the name of that patient.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
Right? They were scooped up off a scene, they were taken to the hospital, maybe they had a triage tag on it with a number. But we can tell you what hospital they went to, but with no way or very rarely could we tell you who it was. Unfortunately.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah, but absolutely, if we can at least get that information We can start to put the pieces together.
Bruce Scott:
Absolutely.
Adam Pendley:
So, and we talk a lot about that and we have a great partnership with the I Love U Guys Foundation as far as for those communities or those entities that may not have a plan already, that it's readily available on their site to build a plan and the standard reunification system and to work through reunification. And reunification is part of response, right? We do all the things we have to do, we get the information we need to the families that have been impacted, we reunite those that can be reunited. And that's on the response side.
So let's shift gears a little bit and talk now about the community recovery and how important the ongoing needs are gonna be. That again, these families have been deeply impacted. The survivors themselves have been deeply impacted. So there is a lot of talk in the country, around the country for agencies and emergency management organizations and volunteer organizations active in disasters to help set up family assistance centers, things that go on for a while.
So you look at back at some incidents that maybe are in an area where a lot of people have come from out of town. Let's say you have an event in your community where a lot of people have come from out town. There're things like they've overstayed their hotel rooms, their rental cars are overdue, they've missed their flights, they've lost their identification, their property is missing. So just from a property collection standpoint, talk a little bit about some of these critical scenes and just the kinds of things that are left behind by survivors of an active shooter event.
Kami Maertz:
Well, if you consider, say at a mall, okay? If everybody's dropping everything and running
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
And so it's going to be deciphering for one thing is what's property from what's merchandise and also who belongs to what.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
And there's going to be an airport's another one where every bag has been dropped and everybody has to be able to reclaim that bag and how are you going to do that? And like you mentioned is it's gonna be also the identifications. It's gonna be things that they need daily and getting those back to them in a timely manner.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
While they're going through all this trauma, while they're going through all of these different things.
Adam Pendley:
So is that something that we can plan for now or do you just think that, is it just better for law enforcement to understand that the mission isn't over once all, you know, once the scene is cleared? Do you think we still have more to do?
Kami Maertz:
Well, we definitely have more to do, right? And it's always about training. So everything's about training and understanding and recognizing that this is gonna happen.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
That you're going to have... We always think of people, we always think of people in reunification and that we're gonna get this person, this person. And sometimes we do forget about that there's a whole nother thing that has to be handled, which is likely property and things like that. But people or property, you have to have that plan in place and know what's gonna happen and be prepared for it that it's going to be a need.
Adam Pendley:
Right. So in the world of emergency management, have you seen an increase or have talked to others about this idea of needing to put together plans for a family assistance center locations? And what are some other community groups that you wanna stay in touch with now to start building some of that?
Bruce Scott:
I think the realization has come that that's a real thing now. I think that you, it's just not a government problem.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
Right? We need our NGOs, we need our volunteer organizations, we need our faith-based organizations to all be involved in the planning of, because later on they all have a role, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So I think that's really important that we don't understand, or we understand, this is not just a law enforcement problem, it's not even a county problem or a city problem, it's a community problem as we said earlier.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
And to engage those folks in that conversation.
Adam Pendley:
Right. So I think in a pre-planning sort of way, this is actually one of the things that some of our communities can talk about now because it's not necessarily even disaster specific. You know, it can be an active shooter event, it can be another type of critical incident, some sort of a major motor vehicle incident or a train derailment. There's a lot of things that can impact a lot of people simultaneously. And the same plans you would put in place can impact, you know, or can be effective in all of these different types of disaster scenarios.
So, and again, I think when we talk about fire, police, EMS, our partnership with the county emergency management, this is the kind of conversation we can have now to say, this is a role I think that emergency management can take on in a community.
Bruce Scott:
And emergency management, if they're doing their job, they're bringing these community partners for a whole litany of reasons, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
There's a whole lot of reasons they're bringing 'em in. To say, the emergency operations center to have conversations about hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, what we're gonna do if, include this into the conversation, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
You know, I say it all the time, you don't wanna figure out the plan when you gotta figure out the plan, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So let's have some conversations early, let's build those relationships. We'll be a lot more successful.
Kami Maertz:
And understanding also that this is gonna be a long term thing.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
That this isn't gonna be something like our, you know, incident is going to have a beginning and an end point, reunification even is gonna be over fairly quickly. But this family assistance center is gonna be there and needed for a long time in your community.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
And it's gonna be dependent on the trauma that you're seeing and how long that's gonna stay open of what resources are gonna be needed.
Adam Pendley:
Right. And the long-term impacts that have to be managed. I mean, we've seen in many communities that some of the locations where the incident occurred are never used again.
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Adam Pendley:
That end up being torn down or that there's discussions about how to memorialize what happened there.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
And the entire community stays involved for a long time. And we may have transitioned from our unified command that was in charge of the initial scene, but I think we're not being honest with ourselves if we don't think our agencies are gonna continue to be involved.
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
Even police, fire, EMS are all still gonna have a role even in the long-term stuff.
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Adam Pendley:
In addition to all those other community partners you mentioned, Bruce. I mean, I think that's really important.
But from a planning perspective, this is one of those things you could even pre designate certain facilities that have the infrastructure that you would need to do a...
Kami Maertz:
And you should.
Adam Pendley:
A long-term family assistance center and the types of a call list of who you would call and who you would get in a position when that happens.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
But similar to reunification, you know, if we were a planning committee right now, we were talking about what our community would do for a family assistance center. How early would we start to get that ball rolling when we get the call of that terrible day is that's happening right now.
Bruce Scott:
Well, again, every community should or probably should have some sort of recovery plan that includes the community recovery to something like this. Right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
So those conversations, you need to talk to your elected and appointed officials, have these conversations 'cause they're gonna be the face of this, you know, the family assistance center, they're gonna be the face of it. What is their goals? What is their end game? What are they looking for? And then be prepared to support them in whatever it means necessary.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. So I think you mentioned it, like, reunification, you're almost thinking about that as the response is underway.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
Clearly, you know, we're not talking about the early first boots through the door. I mean, clearly you need to do the main priorities first.
Kami Maertz:
Which is stability.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah. Active threat, rescue, clear. We know that those are priorities that we focus on.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
But even within the ASIM checklist, we then transitioned to understanding intel and investigation and reunification. Those are even part of the initial response. But I think shortly behind that is the understanding is realizing that, "Well, what happens when reunification is done?" That it's not just over, we don't just walk away and say, "Well, community, you're on your own."
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Adam Pendley:
I think there's still some things to be managed. Now, the look and feel of that incident management structure may change a little bit.
Bruce Scott:
Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
But, there's still...
Bruce Scott:
You could use the same organizational chart if you will.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
But just different people in different chart, different spots.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah.
Bruce Scott:
So it doesn't really go away.
Adam Pendley:
And then hopefully you're making that call to someone to put this plan into motion, right?
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Adam Pendley:
So if you have some pre-designated facilities, if one of 'em is nearby or not directly affected, you can start again making those calls and getting those things set up.
So again, some of the things I've seen in just some other, looking at this topic in other areas that I've seen is the stuff that you don't even necessarily think about. I mentioned some of 'em again, rental cars, hotels, flights, getting identification reissued.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
Phone bills, being able to pay for the electric bills. People that are now out of work. In one community, the location of the active shooter event was at a location that the community used it for Check cashing. It was a grocery store that now, that whole area became a food desert because it was the only grocery store within a certain number of miles.
And we've talked about this in other conversations we've had. It's just when you look at the long-term effects of some active shooter events, it makes you think, "Oh, wait, maybe we should think about that in our community."
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Adam Pendley:
So really, looking at back at some of these stories and thinking about the kinds of stuff that you probably need to plan for now.
Kami Maertz:
Well, and I think it's also, that you build the plans, and you have the plans and then you put them on the back burner in case something this happens, so that you can, early on in the process, let your community know that there already have been plans.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
That this is not gonna be something that you're putting together at the last minute, but it's kind of been well thought out so that you can get it out the community to start that normalization process back, to start transitioning back into what is gonna be the new normal for them, but has a resource for them that they know is coming.
Adam Pendley:
Right. So law enforcement agencies, I mean, again, even after the fact, even if it was on short notice, I think law enforcement agencies in a mutual aid sort of way are really good at stepping up for each other. But imagine that you've had an active shooter event where six, seven, eight of your officers are now in officer involved shooting protocols.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
And they're now out of service. In some police agencies that might not be an impact. In others, if your entire department is 14 officers and eight of them are now potentially out of service for a period of time, that's gonna have an impact. So thinking about those sort of things.
Bruce, what else comes to mind?
Bruce Scott:
Honestly, it comes back to what I say every time. You know, let's work together. Let's bring our community partners in. Let's talk about this. Let's build some sort of plan, as Kami said. We get an opportunity, every chance we have we should be talking about recovery. We spend a lot of time talking about response, right?
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
We train a lot to response and then we say, "Well, that recovery piece, that's somebody else's problem."
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
Well, that's just not true, right? We all have a role and we should embrace that because we're part of our own community most of the time.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
Bruce Scott:
And we want to be part of the solution. So that should be in our head, that should be in our leadership's head that recovery is part of this entire process.
Adam Pendley:
Right. And understanding that it's... And you hit the nail on the head earlier. It doesn't have to just be government agencies. In fact, it can't just be government agencies.
Bruce Scott:
Can't be.
Kami Maertz:
No.
Adam Pendley:
And we get calls sometimes from civilians that want to help in these types of situations. And unlike other types of incidents where they might be able to come and be a volunteer at the scene, that may not apply so much in active shooter type events, but civilians can be engaged now to understand how they could help their community after one of these events happen. And unfortunately, we know that it's not a matter of if, in many cases, it's a matter of when one of us might face this situation. So engaging those partners now, I think is a good way to give an outlet for those civilian organizations in your area, gives them an outlet to be able to help 'cause they wanna help, right?
And the other thing I think that you see a lot of is this is really an opportunity for some of your state and federal agencies to step in and help as well. Many of them have the resources to come to the community and provide that extra deeper bench of people that can do survivor counseling and can do victim services. And that can provide resources to...
You know, I had had an experience myself where some of those that were recovering from the incident, we had TSA there to help issue... Get them through TSA security, 'cause again, they didn't have their ID or get that kind of stuff reissued or get 'em on a plane right now because they need to get home. That sort of thing.
So a lot of your state and federal agencies can bring a lot of resources to the table now. And that just involves a phone call. If you were to call one of your state agencies and say, "Hey, if we had an incident like this, what are the resources you could bring to help us out?"
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
So it's like planning for, I think it's just like planning for anything else.
Bruce Scott:
Yeah. It's planning for recovery, Adam.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Bruce Scott:
And again, I'll say it all the time, it doesn't necessarily have to be an active shooter situation.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
We're planning for the recovery of our community no matter what happens. We wanna engage these partners. Everybody has a role. This is what our expectations are. This is what our elected and appointed leadership expects, right? So we have some guidance. It doesn't necessarily have to be an active shooter...
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Bruce Scott:
But it could be. And obviously, when they become community problems, it's everybody's problem.
Adam Pendley:
And I also think, it's a really good opportunity. You may not have much control at all on this person who woke up today and decided that today was gonna be the day that he does his terrible deed, right?
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Adam Pendley:
You have to react to that. That's your only choice.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
Because when that person decides to start their attack is on them. And we're gonna train for it, we're gonna train, like you said, Bruce, we're gonna do a lot in getting prepared for that initial response, but we have much more control in how we handle the aftermath of something.
Bruce Scott:
Correct.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
And I think that's something that we can work on now. And again, a lot of our audience may be, you know, maybe of the response mindset. Police, fire and EMS.
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Adam Pendley:
And they, you know, job for them ends somewhere on this checklist.
Bruce Scott:
The last time the patient goes off. Yeah.
Adam Pendley:
Exactly. But I think for some of those that are either in leadership positions now or that are making their way toward leadership positions, this is a conversation starter in many communities.
Kami Maertz:
Yeah.
Bruce Scott:
Sure.
Kami Maertz:
And, I mean, even with our responders though, is that we're integrated in the community, so their pain is gonna be our pain even if we're not directly, you know, don't have a family member who's directly involved. Is that seeing your community in that much pain is gonna be important to that healing process. And your first responders who are on scene to making sure that they're healed from that process and being part of that entire grieving process with the community.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. So, and again, I think this is certainly the start of conversations. In just some of my reading and travels, I've seen that this is starting to become a more understood problem. That this is an opportunity to build and make plans that after the shooting stops, after the patients are transported, and after reunification is done, there's still a whole world of things that need to happen.
Bruce Scott:
Right.
Adam Pendley:
And we know just from working with our other NCIER instructors and the stories that they've lived through, the things that go on. Even the criminal investigation. I mean, how many times have we heard that the criminal investigation, the scene can be closed down for weeks?
Kami Maertz:
Oh, absolutely.
Adam Pendley:
Literally weeks. And then after that, some businesses that have been impacted may never open again.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
And how that impacts your community, again, is discussions that we need to have now. And it's just like any other declared disaster. You know, there's resources available to help communities recover. But again, those are all conversations we could have now. And I just think it's the next paradigm shift in the way we think about these critical incidents.
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
And we're talking, you know, again, we're talking about even if just a few people are impacted, it's gonna impact the community. But when you're talking about larger numbers or a bigger scene or a more violent scene, it's really gonna impact the community. So anyway, I appreciate y'all taking a few minutes to talk with us about this. But Bruce, any final thoughts on this topic?
Bruce Scott:
No, I appreciate the conversation, Adam. I think it gives us an opportunity to reiterate the importance of your community working together beforehand, no matter what that is. Recovery is one aspect of that, and it's a huge aspect, but the ability to build those relations prior to that bad thing happened, before that guy does his bad deed, it's certainly an intro conversation about that.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely.
Kami Maertz:
And it's about healing the community after one of these incidents is really about getting involved and being involved and taking the time to consider what it is gonna be to help heal that community back.
Adam Pendley:
And then my only final thought is, again, from listening to some of the others that have lived through these events and in the responder world, police, fire and EMS that we work with, they were surprised, at times, just like I was in an incident that I was involved in, kind of almost surprised that my job isn't over. You know, I thought reunification was done, but then I realized that "Hey, there were some more things that needed to happen."
Kami Maertz:
Yes.
Adam Pendley:
You know, in my community, that the impact, nobody was a local resident. Everybody was from out of town. So I had, you know, I was helping us... Helping members from outside our community recover. Visitors, you know, tourists to our town that were attending an event, needed some help after the fact. And it was really an eyeopener for me. So it's one of the reasons I'm passionate about this topic as well, is that it didn't end just on the response side, there was still a lot of of work to be done.
And again, my final thought would be don't let yourself be in a position where you're surprised by that, you know?
Kami Maertz:
Exactly.
Adam Pendley:
Understand that there's gonna be more work to be done.
Bruce Scott:
And my alibi would be, this is not gonna go away.
Adam Pendley:
Right.
Kami Maertz:
No.
Bruce Scott:
This is a week, month, year thing that you may be dealing with your community solutions.
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely. So, Bruce, Kami, thank you very much.
Kami Maertz:
Thank you.
Adam Pendley:
Again, if you haven't subscribed, please hit that like, subscribe button, share it with others. And again, just like this conversation, there are a wide variety of conversations that we have on these podcasts that touch a lot of different topics and some good ideas out there. And I appreciate you coming in.
Bruce Scott:
Thanks for having us.
Kami Maertz:
Yes. Thank you.
Adam Pendley:
And thank you to Karla Torres, our producer, for keeping us in line and on track.
Bruce Scott:
Yep.
Adam Pendley:
And with that, until next time, thank you.