Ep 90: What Are The Challenges Of Breaching?
Episode 90
Published Aug 5, 2024
Last updated Feb 18, 2026
Duration: 31:19
Episode Summary
Breaching is a critical skill that can save lives during an active shooter event, but most law enforcement officers lack the necessary tools and training. Today our panel looks at the challenges of breaching.
Episode Notes
It’s a simple premise: the door is locked, and we need to get in. The challenges lie in the methods we use to gain entry. From the availability of tools to training, the use of KnoxBoxes, fire inspectors, and handling glass windows, our panel discusses the challenges of breaching. They explore how building relationships and integrating training between law enforcement and fire departments can effectively bridge these gaps.
View this episode on YouTube at https://youtu.be/rVdtWVdiZZI
Transcript
Bill Godfrey:On a previous podcast, the subject of breaching came up from a listener question, and both of my guests with me here today said, "Hey, that's a great topic for another podcast." That's today. Stick around.
Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management podcast. My name is Bill Godfrey, and I will get my English squared away as we get through this. We are here again in the studio at the National Center for Integrated Emergency Response, and I've asked my two guests from the previous podcast to rejoin us: Terry Nichols, one of our instructors from the law enforcement side. Terry, welcome back.
Terry Nichols:
Hello Bill, how are ya?
Bill Godfrey:
Very good, very good. And across the table from us, Joe Ferrara, one of our fire EMS instructors. Joe, appreciate you coming back in for this.
Joe Ferrara:
All right, thank you. Great to be here.
Bill Godfrey:
So you guys will probably remember this 'cause it was pretty recent. We had a listener question that came in, and as a part of that, it was a school scenario, and we were talking about breaching, and both of you made comments that that could be a whole podcast by itself. And we all kind of nodded and agreed. I actually got a couple of emails from listeners specifically law enforcement side that said, "Hey, can you expand on this a little bit? I'm concerned that I don't know what I don't know." I'm paraphrasing, but essentially that was it.
So let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges of breaching and set that up, and why it's important. And then let's talk about some ways to solve the problem. So, Terry, from a law enforcement side, because law enforcement's gonna be at the door that needs to be breached before fire and EMS is there, why does it matter? Why does the tools and the training matter just kind of set that up? Why is it important?
Terry Nichols:
We're going to go into a structure. If there's a crisis, an active shooter event, we're gonna go in in there, and we're gonna need to get in. And many times the doors are locked, and we have to have the tools and more importantly, the training to use those tools to get in. So it's a critical skill for law enforcement. And unfortunately in our business, the people that you see that have those skills are your SWAT teams and then maybe your narcotics units, the people that run warrants on a regular basis, but not your patrol officers who are gonna be the first ones responding to an active shooter event. They're the ones that need the skills, they're the ones that need the tools. And I think it's something that's seriously lacking in our profession.
Bill Godfrey:
Now, I know we talked about this before, but if you had to just swag the number, what's the percentage of patrol officers that have had breaching training and have breaching equipment in their vehicles just across the country, if you had to swag it?
Terry Nichols:
Now you tell me, never do math in public, and you're asking me to do math in public. So thank you very much for that. But I would say 10% would be a probably overly generous that would have some type of formal training. And I think as we get this conversation going, we'll talk about ways to increase that number. But I think very few of your true first responders out driving the patrol calls day in and day out, that would be the first ones to respond to their school, to a business, to anywhere that they would need to get into quickly through a barricade, have the proper tools and training to do it.
Bill Godfrey:
So definitely the minority.
Terry Nichols:
I would absolutely agree, minority.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay, so Joe, as career in the fire service, obviously breaching is a key component of what goes on. What are some of the things that jump outta your mind as the challenges for cops specifically with needing to get through doors that are things that we wanna make sure we hit on and talk about today?
Joe Ferrara:
Sure, well, a couple things. Terry, it's interesting you say less than 10%, and that's generous, and I can safely say everybody that's been through fire standards, it's 100%. So the first question in my mind is law enforcement basic standards. Why aren't we covering breaching? That's number one.
Number two, how easy is it for the agencies to get together? Because here's fire over here, and they've got this great toolbox. They've got the tools, they have the Halligan bars, they've got the flat-headed ax, they've got the K tools, they have the spreaders, they have all these things available to them that they train on regularly. What's it gonna hurt to have law enforcement get together with fire and train on those things and say, here's the patrol sergeant that comes over to the firehouse and says to the fire captain, "Hey, you mind if next shift my shift guys come by, and I see you got this great prop over here that looks like a steel door," and they've got this breaching prop.
Why can't we get together as a community, and first talk about the challenges that are gonna be facing that law enforcement officer, and then what tools can they effectively bring? Because look, tools when it comes to that, if it's in the compartment or in the trunk, it does nobody any good. I think most truckees out there or truck company operators would agree that one guy or gal has to have the irons. You gotta bring the tools to the seat.
Bill Godfrey:
And when you say the irons, Joe, what do you mean?
Joe Ferrara:
The Halligan, the flat headed ax, whatever tools you're gonna need for breaching, they're not gonna do any good when that contact team is standing at the door, and there's an injured person laying on the ground, or worse yet, there's an active threat with gunfire, and they have to get through a door. What do we do if we don't have the tools?
Terry Nichols:
You brought up a great point, and I recently saw my old agency, actually San Marcos, Texas Police Department and San Marcos, Texas Fire Department, they posted on social media recently. It was the squad, they were doing roll call training at the firehouse, and I think it was shift B from the San Marcos Fire Department was training them on breaching. And this is something the leadership has pushed. So the fire chief Les Stevens and the police chief Stan Standridge got together and made this a formal program that they do at that agency.
So it's being done, I don't think it's being done across the board, across the nation, but it's free, it costs nothing. Are there specialized classes in breaching? Absolutely, you can go out and learn how to ballistic breach and do explosive breaching. You can do mechanical breaching. There's all kinds of classes out there, but at the end of the day, you can get with your fire partners that you should be working with anyway, we're talking about integration. What a great opportunity to build relationships before a crisis happens. We're working together, and we're training together, and you're showing me the tools that you have, what I may need in my car. There's lots of things to talk about here, but when you brought that up, it made me think of that San Marcos example in Texas where they're actually physically doing that, and they have a model program.
Bill Godfrey:
And I think I want to frame this out, Joe, tell me if you think I'm tracking here or a little bit off base. I kind of also wanna set the expectations for the audience, both for law enforcement and fire EMS that are out there. 10 minutes. A law enforcement officer or patrol cop spending 10 minutes with a couple of firefighters telling them about some of the subtleties of the differences between a residential door and a commercial door. The difference between forcing a door that opens outward or opens inward and how to know which is which to adjust the casements. 10 minutes of that kind of training and showing you basics with tools is gonna get you through 80% of doors, you think I'm--
Joe Ferrara:
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. Just introducing that topic, like we've already said, the average patrol officer has zero training in that unless they've gone to some specialty. So 10 minutes is better than zero minutes, spending that time in the firehouse. Not only are we building relationships, we always talk about integrated response. Let's start talking more about integrated training and integrated development of policy.
And it's great that that fire chief and that police chief have worked together on this. I would challenge every other chief officer in this country, get it together. That fire station, that fire department is right there in your community. There is no reason why this shouldn't be happening every day because every patrol officer out there is gonna face this same situation potentially. Why not have the tools, why not have the training for it? And it's free in your community as we've already said, it's right there for you.
Terry Nichols:
And we've envisioned over the years about, okay, we can't afford to buy every officer a Halligan tool, a flathead ax and so forth and so on. But at some point, fire agencies rotate those things out, I assume. Hey, make sure you get with the police department before you just throw 'em in the trash or donate 'em to somebody else. We need 'em in our patrol cars.
Which leads to a whole nother discussion about do you have it at the time of the crisis? Like you said, if you leave it on the truck or if you leave in the trunk of the patrol car and you don't have it, you do not have time. Time is of the essence and saving lives, right? Stop the killing, stop the dying. We don't have time to run back out the car. Oh, I need to grab this, so it's part of that ongoing training, but to the fundamental conversation is like getting us working together, what a great opportunity to build those relationships. Get 10 minutes of training, like you said, I don't need to send my officers to an eight hour training class or a 10 hour or two day or two week breaching class. It'd be nice, we just know that's not realistic.
So let's talk real realistic. Spend 10 minutes, take your roll call, your B shift roll call and do the roll call at the training house. Go to the firehouse and do whatever your normal briefing would be and then roll out into the bay or wherever outside to the area and let them show you 10 or 15 minutes or 30 minutes worth of breaching techniques.
Joe Ferrara:
And Terry, don't forget to mention A shift and C shift. 'cause everybody picks on B shift.
Terry Nichols:
My bad, sorry about that, but yeah, okay. A shift and C shift, I'm sorry.
Bill Godfrey:
So from a practical point of view, and so I want to come back to the idea of the 10 minutes of training and how to get that done, but access to tools. So let's say you're in an organization and even the small and mid-size organizations, money doesn't grow on trees. We wish it did, but it doesn't. So it may, even if leadership buys into the fact that we need these tools in the back of police cars, it may take, we may have to wait till next year's budget in order to be able to buy 'em. So what do we do in the meantime?
That goes back to the relationship building. Every firetruck has these tools. Every firetruck has these tools. Are they going to be part of the first stack of three or four officers? No, but are they going to be at the staging area pretty quick? So maybe one of your follow on officer's duties in the short period of time to overcome this gap is to go find the first firetruck and get Joe, as you said, get the irons, get the Halligan, get the flat-headed ax, or get a sledge hammer that we've spent 15, 20 minutes showing the cops how to make 'em work. And that cop then takes them into the team that's already in at the crisis site. So there's the long term solution, which is proper equipment, proper training.
Joe Ferrara:
Costs money.
Bill Godfrey:
It does. But in the meantime, if you have one of these calls tomorrow that's a right now right now problem today. So go knock on the door and talk to the the fire guys and gals and say, "Hey, I'd like to be able to do this. Here's why I'd like to know the basics."
And Joe, you mentioned a good point. A lot of fire stations these days have these door props. Not all of 'em, but a lot of 'em do. And generally most fire departments are gonna have one or two of these door props somewhere in their organization. But we don't really need the door prop to show you how it works, we can show it to you on the doors in the fire station. Now we're not gonna break the doors in the fire station.
Joe Ferrara:
Just be careful,
Bill Godfrey:
But there's ways to do that. Terry, from that perspective there's a patrol cop and maybe he's a rookie, maybe he's been a job a couple of years, but he's concerned about this, and he wants to know something. How does he go knock on the door at a firehouse and open that dialogue without having to wait for permission on high from the puzzle palace that is headquarters?
Terry Nichols:
I think you just do it. We meet each other at traffic crashes. We meet each other on structure fires. You know, at least I did in my organization that I knew some of 'em, not all of 'em, but I knew 'em, all the B shift guys and gals. And just go, "Hey, I've got some questions. Can you show me some stuff, please?" And I know the fire services would be more than happy to do it. They're not gonna say no go away, cop. It's just not gonna happen.
At the same time we talked about building those relationships and saying, hey, right now we don't have anything in our cars. So what we're kind of internally planning, hopefully within the organization is what you just said. We're gonna have a cop at staging immediately and their sole missions when first apparatus that pulls up, we're gonna be grabbing, borrowing some tools. So just get ready knowing that's what our ask is gonna be, so you don't have to climb up your ladder asking, hey, can we give the cops these tools?
This is our pre-plan, talking about pre-planning in the fire service, this is our pre-plan. I'm gonna have an officer at staging, and their sole mission is to grab tools and move forward.
Bill Godfrey:
Joe, from your perspective, like me you spent your career in the fire service and rose to the top ranks as a fire chief. What would be your words of encouragement for a street cop that is concerned about this, but doesn't really know how to make the approach to the fire guys and gals?
Joe Ferrara:
Well, I think first of all, there's probably a lot of relationships already in place, as Terry has already said so it's not a big deal. I think you can safely say there's a lot of law enforcement officers that have probably already shared a meal at the firehouse, at the very least. For those that haven't look, it just takes a trip over to the firehouse and a knock on a door and walk in and say, "Hey guys, I know we're on that call earlier, but I was just thinking I don't know a lot about breaching, and I know you guys know how to open doors and break stuff down," and fire, we're good at that. "So would you mind showing me some of the equipment, and let's go over it?" It doesn't take much. This is a boots on the ground conversation that should be occurring in every jurisdiction in every firehouse in this country.
Terry Nichols:
There's two leadership things I'd like to bring up here. 'Cause it is a great segue into this conversation about, one, it takes humility. It takes an officer having the humility to recognize, one, that gap within themselves. And then it takes courage, it takes the courage to go knock on that firehouse door and ask for help.
Joe Ferrara:
Bring food.
Terry Nichols:
That always helps.
Bill Godfrey:
Bagels.
Terry Nichols:
Donuts?
Joe Ferrara:
Not donuts.
Bill Godfrey:
Not donuts, bagels.
Terry Nichols:
But humility--
Bill Godfrey:
It's a cultural difference.
Terry Nichols:
Humility on the officers side that I don't know, what I don't know, and I'm okay with asking for help and then to having the courage to actually go do that. Those two leadership traits I think we need more of in all the world.
Bill Godfrey:
And I think the same is true on the fire and EMS side. So I'm gonna talk about breaching, but I'm also gonna bring this around on the fire EMS side. We assume that we know about operating in a tactical environment, but we don't. If you haven't had formal RTF training in your organization, but you're thinking this is how it's gonna go down, go talk to the cops that work your zone and say, "Hey, can you stop by and spend 10 minutes with me and give me the basics of what to do and what not to do about operating the tactical environment?"
So just like you said, be humble about it because there are gaps that we don't know. And on the breaching side of things from the fire department, we know this is a gap. You know it's a gap, and you are going to know whether or not the cops in your jurisdiction have gone through breaching training and have tools in their car. Most of 'em probably don't. Make the offer, don't make them ask, make the offer, whether it's to a street cop or to the patrol sergeant or to the lieutenant or one training officer to another training officer. Make the offer, don't make them come ask.
Terry Nichols:
Yeah, good point. One thing I think I wanna circle back to, just the fundamentals of breaching I think is worthy of just mentioning one more time is like for cops, we love to break things, I know fire service, loves to break stuff--
Joe Ferrara:
We love to break things!
Terry Nichols:
But you you know you're going to this in progress active shooter call, and you come up on a closed door and maybe first thing we wanna do is try to break it down. How about try the door first, how about the handle? 'Cause it may be unlocked, it'd be a novel concept, but a lot of 'em are unlocked. If not, you potentially have a key. If it's a school or something like that, a typical business, you may not, but a key, then you start thinking about your forcible entry tools. But don't forget, try the handle first and try to get in. That's always rule number one.
Bill Godfrey:
It's funny, we needed to tangent over to keys and that was a perfect segue to doing that because there's a lot to talk about there. There's one thing to have the key ring and schools we've all seen 'em. The janitors--
Joe Ferrara:
Janitor key ring.
Bill Godfrey:
Literally have a ring of keys, and they know where every key was. It's interesting, there was a quick study that was done, I say quick study so it wasn't a real formalized thing, but there was an evaluation done of a handful of janitors that knew every key on their belt, and they put them in a stressful situation in an active shooter training scenario and then ask them to open doors and their hands were shaking so bad that they could not get the right key selected from the key ring and in the lock.
So when you think about, and the reason I'm going there is the keys generally aren't marked. There may have been a master key that worked at one point that was probably good for a week after they installed the locks and then one got broken and now we have a different combination that goes through.
KnoxBox, Joe, I want you to talk a little bit about KnoxBoxes and some of the good and the bad that goes on with KnoxBoxes. But just because you've got the keys doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna know which key is gonna get through that door. So Joe, talk a little bit about some of those challenges in the KnoxBox, and then I want to come back to the role of fire inspectors and fire prevention in helping solve this problem.
Joe Ferrara:
Yeah, and that's a great concept. Look, KnoxBoxes work wonderful in this country.
Bill Godfrey:
And explain what it is.
Joe Ferrara:
Yes. So a KnoxBox is a locked box that is installed, usually on the outside of the building, in some cases in large complex commercial structures with different keys. Bill, you've already mentioned the problem with master keys and the like, there may be multiple boxes in different areas for different specific rooms. Imagine you walk up to the front of a building, and there's this little box, lockbox, so to speak, that you put a key in, and this key is universal for that community. So the fire department, potentially law enforcement, and these keys are very secure because you can imagine if in that key gets out, but that key can open every KnoxBox or lockbox in that community, inside there is a master key or a specific key to that door.
Now that sounds like a great concept, and it sounds like, oh, great problem solved. However, what happens when Bill just said it, they fix a lock, and they do something or something changes? Did they remember to update the key that's inside the KnoxBox? And here we are in a stressful situation. I've got the one key to open that KnoxBox, and I open it, and there's a key in there and it doesn't work or worse yet, took it out to update it, and they didn't replace it, and now it's empty.
So there's great things with the KnoxBoxes and certainly many fire departments during calls have benefited from having that program in place. Many communities mandate it as part of the building permit process that that commercial structure has a lockbox on the outside, however, and Bill you already mentioned fire inspectors and the like, are we inspecting these on a regular basis to make sure they're updated? Is somebody on a periodic basis, whether it's maintenance personnel at the school or commercial structure, or fire inspectors, are they opening up the KnoxBox, taking the key out and ensuring that it works? Because again, great concept, saved a lot of structures and potentially lives across this country. However, the downside is it may not have the right key or the key at all in there.
Terry Nichols:
And it may be the key to the front door, but guess what?
Joe Ferrara:
It may not be the key to the classroom.
Terry Nichols:
It's not the key to the classroom. It'll get me in the front door, but it won't get me in the classroom 123 down the hallway. So I think our law enforcement brothers and sisters could use some training on that as well, at least from my experience. Some they'll know what it is, the functionality of it, the potential problems with it. They'll probably look back and go, yeah, I didn't think about that. So that's another opportunity, always looking for opportunities for that integration to work together and be on the same page before a crisis happens. I think that is just absolutely key before a crisis happens.
Bill Godfrey:
And this is where I want to come back to fire inspectors and fire marshals and their role in not just fire prevention but in the prevention of fatalities. The fire inspectors and fire marshals are in every school in this country. Public, private, daycares they're in every single one of 'em. Now there's the regulatory side. Maybe you're in a community that doesn't require KnoxBoxes. Maybe you're in a community that does. Have they met the standard? There's the regulatory sides of this. I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the education side. When you're in the school, is talking to the school administrators and saying, listen, we've got these issues to address. You got the exit block, whatever, blah, blah, blah for the typical inspection, I wanna talk to you a little bit about keys and access. In a crisis, whether it's a fire crisis or a law enforcement crisis, like an active shooter response our responders need maps. Those maps need to be simplified. They need to be color-coded, and in a perfect world, the wing that we mark with the red color code has a key with a red plastic cap on it. And now we know that that red key unlocks the doors in the red wing and the green wing and the blue wing and that kind of stuff.
There is an opportunity for fire inspectors and fire marshals across this country to have a tremendous impact on how a response goes in a crisis just by doing some basic education with the school administrators. And I think schools are one of our scariest targets, even though they're number three on the list. The most common target is businesses, number two is open air venues, and number three is schools. And fortunately that number remains low compared to the others, but nevertheless, it's the one we all worry about. So we want to make that better.
Now, our topic here is breaching. Did we talk about glass doors or doors that have glass windows in the door or glass next to the door, and how to breach those? 'Cause I don't think we did.
Joe Ferrara:
No.
Terry Nichols:
We haven't touched on it yet. But you're right, everything you just said is brilliant about the fire inspectors and things. It really is. But let's talk about glass. So a lot of doors have glass, you can see through 'em. Quickest way, if it's locked, you've tried it, it's locked. You don't have a key. If you have a tool, ideally a tool, break and rake the window, reach in and unlock the door. That may be a push bar, it may be a handle. There may be a glass inset right next to the door, break that glass and reach in and lock the door.
So there's, there's options there. It doesn't just have to be a set Halligan tool and pry. It may be a lot quicker just to break the glass. For law enforcement, it may be taking a shot through glass, but that comes with training and things like that, and it's happened.
Bill Godfrey:
Now for clarification, are we talking about a shot through the glass to break the glass or a shot through the glass at a target?
Terry Nichols:
Thanks for clarifying, no, shot to take on a target. We're not shooting the glass to break it, but if you see a threat, and it's happened, I think it was in actually in Memphis, if I'm not mistaken, at a bank, an active shooter where the officer from exterior had to take a shot through the glass to down the gunman that was actively engaging people in the lobby of the bank. So it has happened, but again, you should practice these things and train for this stuff. The ones that are doing it are your snipers on SWAT teams. Your ones that know how to do this and what glass ballistics do, and they don't do. But it's not really breaching, but it's stopping a threat before you can get in, if you can't get in.
Bill Godfrey:
Joe, what are the notes that you would want to give our listeners about using glass in the door or nearby the door as a potential breach and access point?
Joe Ferrara:
Sure, you already mentioned the break and rake method, but let's be careful. Most of these commercial structures, we're dealing with tempered safety glass, a lot of times we're also dealing with wire-reinforced glass. So specialty tools come into play. Something as simple as a center punch, which is a small spring loaded device that pretty much every firefighter either has in their jacket or on the truck--
Bill Godfrey:
About the size of a pen.
Joe Ferrara:
About the size of a pen, that can take out tempered safety glass very easily by snapping it in the corner. So you don't necessarily need to like go grab the sledgehammer, we're gonna break this glass. When a small tool like a spring-loaded center punch can be very effective in getting that open.
But again, training, training, training. I certainly don't advocate an officer trying to take out the glass like that without, at the very least, hand protection because how effective that officer's gonna be if they cut their hand up, and now they're not gonna be able to use their weapon, they're not gonna be able to treat the patient. I mean there's a lot of implications here.
Terry Nichols:
Right.Yeah, it's less than ideal, but it is, again, train, if you know how to do it, you have the tools to do it, the spring punch, well, I used to have one, I carried it for years and we always pushed carrying them. But in reality, that's another option you have to face. Is that the door is locked, I've tried it, it is locked, I don't have a key, but there is a glass window right next to the door. Here's my next option and start working through it.
Bill Godfrey:
I think the one thing I would add is that you want to get as much energy delivered in a very, very small point, and I'll use the Hollywood stupidity extreme. You've got glass you wanna break, and you pick up a big chair, and you slam the chair. That big chair diffuses the energy over such a large area that your chances of breaking the glass are extremely low. But if you took the leg of a chair that's got a point and focus that as the smash point, you're delivering a lot more energy into a small area. So a piece of pipe, a sharp tool, even the butt of a metal fire extinguisher would be better than just bluntly trying to throw a large object, a large object is not the way to get it done. You want something that's got a point on it, or at least a small area so that when you hit it, you're hitting it with a fair amount of energy delivered to the glass that'll crack it.
Joe Ferrara:
And the only thing I would add to that Bill, is not to get all physics geeky here or anything like that--
Bill Godfrey:
Oh boy, Terry. Buckle in, here we go.
Terry Nichols:
I'm putting my seatbelt on.
Joe Ferrara:
But when you look at a plate of glass or a pane of glass and you talked about focusing the energy on a small area, think about that small area, and think about if that small area is in the middle of the pane of glass, most glass and some glass at room temperature is still technically a liquid. So there's gonna be a lot of flexing, and it's not gonna break. But in the corner of the glass where the glass is mounted, it's a lot more rigid there, and that energy is gonna be more successful in breaking that glass. So let's not smash something into the center of the pane of glass, let's go down in the corner and focus the energy. You got a lot more chance of breaking that glass effectively.
Terry Nichols:
See, I'm hearing this, and I've been through breaching classes, taught breaching classes, shotgun breaching and everything else, but there's still opportunities here that I'm hearing for that training, that roll call training, getting the police to go over to the firehouse and just talk about glass.
Joe Ferrara:
Yeah, why not?
Terry Nichols:
Simply talking about glass. I can't tell you how many videos you see out there of officers taking their ASP baton trying to break out a window of a car, and they're doing exactly what you're talking about, Bill. They're hitting right in the middle of it--
Joe Ferrara:
Not effective.
Terry Nichols:
And it's not effective, and there's a better way to do it. And it just is just tweaking a tactic that can pay dividends in a really critical situation.
Joe Ferrara:
Yeah, this is not difficult. We just have to talk about it. We just have to talk through it and say, okay, you thought it was gonna work this way, but here's how it really works. Try this, hey, problem solved.
Bill Godfrey:
Little bit of planning, little bit of training goes a long, long way.
Terry Nichols:
And again, if you can do the formal training, there's classes out there, if you can do that, outstanding. If your agency's in a financial position to be able to do that, go, please do it. But if not, I think we've laid out a great case of how you can do it and working together and integrating and breaking bread with your brothers and sisters in another service.
Bill Godfrey:
And I think the thing that I wanna leave the listeners with is, for law enforcement, for fire, for EMS, this is not a problem that you gotta wait for the puzzle palace to solve.
Terry Nichols:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
You do not have to wait for headquarters and leadership to solve this. You can solve this one with a relationship and a friendly conversation and bringing donuts to the cops or bagels to the firefighters, and every--
Joe Ferrara:
It's just boots on the ground.
Bill Godfrey:
It is
Joe Ferrara:
They can fix it.
Bill Godfrey:
It is.
Well gentlemen, thank you for coming in and talking about this topic. I think we've given people a lot of ideas on how to do that. I really appreciate you coming back in to follow up on it. And again, thank you to our producer Karla Torres as always for making us look great. Please like and subscribe to the podcast and share it with the people you work with. Until next time, stay safe.