Ep 61: Tactical or Command?
Episode 61
Published Dec 4, 2023
Last updated Feb 18, 2026
Duration: 27:45
Episode Summary
Today's topic is a law enforcement listener question. Ironically, the question hits on something we changed in the ASIM Checklist a number of years ago after observing there was a better way to do it. Tactical or Command?
Episode Notes
A law enforcement listener asks:
"Could you guys do a podcast about the naming of positions, particularly tactical? Our fire department has a big issue with the radio ID of tactical being used instead of the radio ID of command for that position until the cold zone command post is stood up and that title is transferred to the incident commander. I get why, but cannot seem to get the point across. They say it is not ICS compliant to use tactical radio ID. Please help."
Well, we can certainly help with that! (Psst... it is completely ICS compliant, we have proof)
Watch this episode on YouTube at https://youtube.com/live/RfKrGg_Y_48
Transcript
Bill Godfrey:Today's topic is a listener question. Ironically, a question hits to something that we changed in the checklist a number of years ago after observing there was a better way to do it. Stick around. Well, that's coming up. Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management Podcast. My name is Bill Godfrey, your podcast host, seated with me are three of our other instructors. We've got Adam Pendley, Pete Kelting, and Ron Ottobacher, all from the law enforcement side. Today, I'm the lone fire EMS person. Though Ron, I may lean on you a little bit. Your history as starting off as a firefighter medic before a career in law enforcement.
Ron Otterbacher:
We drew the fire engine with horses back then.
Bill Godfrey:
Wow, really dating yourself there. Okay, so guys, today's topic is listener question. And let me read it to you and then we'll unfold it there. Could you guys do a podcast about the naming of positions, particularly tactical? Our fire department has a big issue with the radio ID of tactical being used instead of the radio ID of command for that position until the cold zone command post is stood up and that title is transferred to the incident commander. I get why, but cannot seem to get the point across. They say it is not ICS compliant to use tactical radio ID. Please help. Well, we can certainly help with that. So just to clarify what this listener is talking about is when you're standing up, you're doing the initial arrival sequence. The first contact team that gets there takes... In fact, the first arriving officer takes command. They become contact one. As soon as tactical gets stood up, tactical has command. And then ultimately we get our first supervisor who establishes the command post and is the first one that begins using the radio ID of command, but is not the first one in command. And so that is gonna be our topic. And here's what I'll suggest as a format.
Let's split this into two parts. Let's talk about how the model is intended to work. You know, how we want the... If you think of it as a football team, you know, The play we're trying to teach the team, how do we want the play to actually unfold? And then I think we'll spend a little time talking about some of the things that can come up and go wrong and do that. And let me first address the ICS compliance. This is... Yeah, sometimes our... My fire service brothers and sisters get a little too carried away with their perceived knowledge of NIMS and ICS that sometimes is not grounded in what the documents actually say. So first of all, we are absolutely ICS compliant. Unlike most policies that fire departments would write or police departments would write, ours has actually been through a formal NIMS, ICS review with the NIMS integration center up at the federal level, not once, not twice, but three times, and has been approved as compliant all three times. On top of that, we're also compliant with all of the relevant portions of NFPA 3000, which is a very sweeping policy and procedure. But the stuff in terms of response, we're compliant with that. So to suggest that somehow this isn't ICS compliance, we can talk a little bit more about that. But Adam, I know you're itching to jump in on this one, so go right ahead.
Adam Pendley:
Sure, so I mean, the word compliance sometimes I think handcuffs you into not understanding that it's a structure. It's a structure that's meant to make a rapidly expanding event. There's some terminology in place that makes things unfold a little bit more organized. One of the tenants of ICS, the 17 tenants of ICS, that is within the documents that you're talking about, one of them is the ability to be flexible and expandable and common terminology. And the fact that you have a unity of command. So I can kind of look at this from both sides of that coin, right? There should be some understanding of who's in command when you're responding... A follow-on responder to a scene. But you should also remain flexible to be successful and to make the tools that are in the toolbox work for what you have unfolding. But I have, strangely enough, and I don't even know if you remember this, but I for a short time, started my career as a fire dispatcher and then-
Bill Godfrey:
No, I didn't know that.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah, I did and then-
Bill Godfrey:
You started as a dispatcher, didn't know it was-
Adam Pendley:
No, and the law enforcement dispatcher, and then I became a police officer and then, you know, the rest from there. But a couple things about that. So just to kind of understand the way law enforcement works, and I know you guys can jump in as well. Oftentimes when one or two officers are dispatched to a call, the primary officer or the first arriving officer, they're in command, but they don't necessarily call themselves command on the radio, but they are giving direction, right? They're telling follow-on units, "hey, I'm seeing somebody move around in the front. I need you to go for the back." That sort of thing. As more units get there, oftentimes a supervisor will also by virtue of maybe their call sign or the fact that everyone knows they're a sergeant, they will start giving direction and now they're in command.
So that transfer of command happens kind of in that way on the law enforcement side. On the fire side, it's by policy and policy only that that first arriving engine company or first arriving apparatus, the officer on that truck goes, "I'm in command, but sweating bullets just long enough until the battalion chief gets there and takes command and then, ooh, I'm done. I'm no longer in command." So it's a terminology thing that they designate as part of their policy, but I don't know that that word means a lot for that first arriving apparatus that they're in command just long enough for the battalion chief to get there and be in command. So... But both transitions happen the same way. If you're the only one on the scene, you're in command, right? And you have to give direction to follow on units. And then as the incident expands and you start to build out a little bit, you have someone that then identifies themselves as command on the radio as the situation continues to unfold. And both are ICS compliant.
Bill Godfrey:
So Ron, you, I think hold the distinction of being our longest-serving instructor other than myself who has not yet, you know, retired-retired. And this interestingly was something that we changed ironically. When we first started doing the checklist, I'm sure you remember this way back when, we actually forced the first arriving officer to call themselves command on the radio. And then the person that was arriving as tactical had to be command and then reassign them to contact one. And then that first supervisor had to be command and assign the fifth person to tactical, you know, and on. I know you remember that. Talk about what it was like and why we changed it.
Ron Otterbacher:
Well, I think the transition in leadership is what we're talking about with that. In a lot of ways it went well because again, if I don't know anyone else if I'm an outside responder or follow-on responder, I know that there's a command. I can call command and someone's gonna answer. That was the good part. The problem is we built throughout the years, we would do that transition of command and someone would call command, and then at that time, tactical would answer for command although command structure was all stood up on their own because they forgot to carry on their new assignment... Their new call sign and everything. So that confusion led us to try to make it easier and just have them keep their call sign contact one, you know, tactical and then command so that if I call command, I got command. I didn't get someone that forgot they changed 45 minutes ago from command to another assignment. So I think that's why it progressed the way it did. And it's helped us with communications along the way. You know, it's... Again, it helps more for follow-on responders. If you're with one agency, you can recognize a voice and say that voice is command. Because you've worked with that person for years, but someone else responding has no idea anyone's call sign or who's in charge. They just call that moniker of command. And that's why we took it away from the other ones and just try to make it a smoother transition. It seems to have worked.
Bill Godfrey:
I think so. I mean, Pete, this was all about keeping it simple. I know you came on the team, you'd been, you know, working with us on the other side as an agency that we were training and then came on the team as an instructor about the time we were grappling with this, if I'm remembering that right. But this was really about simplifying and making it easier, wasn't it?
Pete Kelting:
Absolutely. You know, what Ron was talking about was, you know, we used the word command because we wanted folks down range, our contact teams to be in charge. He said be in charge. And so the word command is like, "okay, I'm in charge." But it caused that confusion. And then, you know, when we switched to tactical, it was so that we stayed focused, right? That individual is focused down range, focus on what's happening, what resources are needed, how many more folks we need to push down range. And that that perception of command, I'm grappling with all these other things that the word command sometimes puts in people's minds that... No, we're focused on tactical operations down range at our event. And that's what really made it simple.
Bill Godfrey:
The the other thing I think that's important, and it's a minutiae detail, but sometimes, you know, the NIMS and ICS purists get into the minutiae. When you look at the checklist, it actually very clearly identifies as the sequence stands up of who's in command. That that first arriving officer is establishing command, they're establishing ICS. There is nowhere in NIMS or ICS doctrine that actually says you can't be in command unless you call yourself command on the radio. It just doesn't say that.
Adam Pendley:
That's true.
Bill Godfrey:
It's not really there. But one of the things that help us get through this was identifying who had that command responsibility as we stood up without having to have them change their call sign. So if the first arriving officer is there and he says, you know, I'm establishing command and I am contact one, and then somebody arrives a couple minutes later and says, "command, where do you need me?" That person's gonna answer. And it's the same thing true for tactical during the period of time that tactical is in charge, that they are command in addition to execute their... They're executing the tactical role, but they're in command. If somebody comes in and goes, "command, gimme a briefing," tactical is gonna pop up on the radio and give 'em a briefing and do that. And so that's how we maintain the documentation flow of that command role. But again, these transitions are happening very, very quickly. And in some cases we're moving command from contact one to tactical to the first supervisor within the first five minutes, Adam?
Adam Pendley:
Absolutely, yes. And again, I think it's more about... We talk about the fact that we're not even gonna say that this is the only way, or it's that it's the way or... But we can say that some of this makes getting the job done faster and that's what it's all about. It's about getting there and dealing with the active threat, transitioning to rescue and getting patients transported. And so it's about being faster. And to do that contact team one needs to know that that's their role. As soon as they're on scene, they change from their daily radio call sign and they become contact team one. One person talks on the radio that leads that team.
If a contact team two gets there and they go in as a contact team two, they are contact two. And there are other radio call signs, they're not using those anymore. And the fifth man or the officer that becomes tactical needs to call themselves tactical on the radio very early on so people can get tactical direction. And then to your point, Bill, command gets there pretty quickly and is going to be in command. So that... Oftentimes it's by rank, you know, that maybe a ranking sergeant or a lieutenant gets there and now they're at the command post. But here's the interesting thing. When we see this unfold in training in the real world, a command post does get established and it gets really busy, right? And some higher ranking person comes and now they're in command. But it's a face-to-face transfer of command.
And in real life and in training, we encourage the person that was talking on the radio for the command post, they're still calling themselves command. So that the person that becomes the law enforcement branch, they're actually still saying command on the radio. But that doesn't take the actual virtue of command away from the ranking officer that's in the command post that's actually making all the decisions. But a good incident commander shouldn't have a radio in their hand. They should have a team that's doing some of that. So I would ask the folks that are still stuck on this, if I have a person that's standing at the whiteboard making notes in the command post for what's unfolding, and they're answering-
Bill Godfrey:
A comm aide.
Adam Pendley:
Right, a comm aide. They're answering the radio as command because they're answering for the command post. Does that take away the command from the ranking supervisor that's there? No, he's-
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah, the logic breaks down a little bit.
Adam Pendley:
He or she is still in command. They just have somebody talking on the radio for them. So I think if you really let this unfold the way it's designed, you do get someone on the radio calling themselves command. So if you are that outside resource and you come rolling in, you don't have to figure out, you don't have to call, you know, some lieutenant call sign that you don't know. You can still call command and somebody's in charge. Somebody's in charge at all times. Whether it's the first arriving officer, whether it's tactical or whether it's the command in the command post that ultimately is in command.
Pete Kelting:
Yeah, you know, quite often, Bill, you'll hear me explain it sometimes when we get the same question in class, I'll say think of it as command and contact teams as a verb. It's where the activities happening, the in charge needs to happen. And as it transitions to tactical, it's still a verb. When it finally gets to the command post, now it's a noun. You know, it's kind of... It's moving, it's moving quick as Adam was talking about.
Ron Otterbacher:
And it helps delineate the responsibility. So, you know, if you've gotta gotta deal with someone downrange, you're dealing with tactical. If you're dealing with the contact teams themselves, you're dealing with contact teams, anything else goes back to command. 'cause it's a broader perspective.
Bill Godfrey:
So Pete you mentioned earlier, I think you and Ron both alluded to this actually that when we were doing it the original way, where we were making 'em use the command call sign and then try to change their call signs and, you know, wrap their head around that with everything else that they had to work on, we ran into some challenges. Walk us through some examples of what those challenges were that came up and what the consequences of those... That confusion was before we made this change.
Pete Kelting:
I think both Ron and Adam mentioned two key points there was tactical direction, talking to somebody that is gonna get you the resources for what you're needing downrange tactical. Early on we got a lot of comments about, you know, the word command, is the perception of most people think it's, you know, Lieutenant so-and-so, Captain so-and-so, Chief so-and-so, battalion chief or whatever, in their mind when they're calling command that they're talking all the way back to that where the flagpole is at, not to the person that they need. They can get the resources at the time, but we use the word command to instill take charge, and you have the ability to make the decision right there, right then at the tactical location. So those were the challenges that we were running into with that perception of, "well, who am I actually talking to on the radio when I call command, right?" And then there was some uncomfortability of people at a tactical position or even contact teams going, "I've got command." You know, 'cause they think the only time someone should use the word command is if you've planted the flag where the command post is going. But no, it's actually just like Ron saying is, you know, taking charge and getting those resources and having that directional control.
Ron Otterbacher:
And with the handoffs of the command moniker, you would have people that would answer for command and then everyone would think, "the problem is taken care of. Command's got it." Well, command didn't even hear the request because someone who had the moniker of command answered for them and because the conversation didn't continue to the command post, the command post may not have any idea what that request was and you automatically assume that it's been taken care of. That takes us back to the four Cs of communication. Last one being confirmation, confirm that the message was received by the right person.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah, there was a lot of missed radio calls. You know, miscommunications. People that were trying to reach command and the wrong person answered 'cause they forgot that their name changed. Or people that were trying to get tactical and forgot that the name changed to command. It just... It caused... What were some of the other things that you saw that it caused?
Adam Pendley:
I think, again, I would focus on the idea that it slowed things down a little bit because you had extra time on the radio to get the briefing and say, "okay, I now designate you contact team one and I have command," and then the first law enforcement super... Of rank that gets there that wasn't somehow otherwise engaged. Because again, sometimes these things don't happen in rank order, right? Jobs that need to get done downrange, your ranking supervisor might end up being part of contact team one just because she was nearby, right? So the person that becomes tactical has to be available to call themselves tactical. And then when a follow-on supervisor from another area gets there and finally establishes command, you don't want there to be then another radio conversation as, "command, give me a briefing, command from supervisor one, gimme a briefing," and there's a briefing and, "okay, now I designate you tactical and I have command," it slows things down.
People know the jobs that need to get done 'cause we train to this. Contact team one has a job to do downrange, they're pushing towards the active threat. Contact team two gets in there to support that. At the same time, tactical's getting stood up and they're calling themselves tactical 'cause they are giving tactical direction, they're setting a staging location for follow on units and they're making strategic decisions. And then command arrives and by the fact that they know tactical and contact teams have already been established and I'm the next ranking supervisor, I'm going to establish a command post. Or if on duty that night, I know that my lieutenant was already the first one inside, I'm gonna still help establish a command post until more help arrives, right? And I may call myself command because now I have a place where fire EMS can meet and we can all become part of the command post and then we start setting up command in a law enforcement branch and you know.
Pete Kelting:
And the majority of all the radio traffic early on in the event is about tactical needs.
Adam Pendley:
Yes.
Bill Godfrey:
And-I think that's part of the equation. I wanted to make sure that we didn't leave out on the... You've got essentially split radio traffic. You've got traffic on the law enforcement channel, you've got traffic on the fire and EMS channel. And until the command post is established, you know, again, the model in a perfect world, until the command post is established, fire EMS doesn't even have anybody to interface with. Because if the command post hasn't been established in the cold zone and tactical is still forward in the warm zone, you don't have any communication with tactical. The fact that they may or may not call themselves on command on the radio. But you could call tactical and say, "hey, command, you know, where are you at?" And he goes, "I'm standing right in front of the building." You know, fire EMS is not gonna move up under those circumstances. So the notion that somehow there's not somebody in charge, that there's not somebody that's designated with the command role is just a complete misunderstanding of what's actually happening. That command role is shifting very quickly. You know, it's a mobile command from the first contact team that's going in, then it pushes out to tactical and then it pushes back to the cold zone. So basically command starts in the hot zone, pushes to the warm zone and then pushes back to the cold zone where fire EMS is actually gonna do its interface. But at no point is there not someone that's in charge and in command.
Adam Pendley:
You actually hit on an interesting point there. Remember, you know, when these calls come in, police and fire and EMS are all toned out at the same time. So if you really wanted to take this to an illogical extreme, what if contact team one did call themselves command for an extended period of time and the ranking fire person gets on scene and says, "I need to link up with command," well, we're in hallway A come on in-
Bill Godfrey:
Come on in and join us.
Adam Pendley:
Yeah, yeah. So that doesn't work, right? You have to... I think in this type of rapidly moving event that starts out in a hot zone because most of it's a hot zone until you're able to pin down what you have, that it needs to be clear that contact teams are contact teams, they're giving direction until somebody else can get there to give direction. Then tactical is tactical and they're still giving direction and they're giving direction to follow on units. And then a command is established that now needs to be clearly in the same place. So your law enforcement command, your medical branch can all be in the same place. That's really important. So that's kind of... We kind of accidentally hit on another reason why keeping that terminology simple early on is important.
Bill Godfrey:
I think it is. The frustration and challenge for me is I think sometimes in the fire service we've become so dogmatic in ICS doctrine, but we actually have become dogmatic in the way we do it and the way we do it in the fire service. And somehow in our minds, because we've learned this on the job and come up through the careers, that is what ICS is because we say so, and it's a little bit misguided. There's a lot of things that fire folks will claim is ICS doctrine that's not. When you go back to the documents and you actually look and the the idea that this isn't ICS compliant is... You know, it's a frustrating one. We... Go ahead.
Adam Pendley:
No, I just had another kind of funny thought. 'Cause this is a lot about how it's identified on the radio. To the point you made earlier, when you look at it on an org chart, it's clear who's in command at all times. But the other thing it says in the doctrine is that the incident commander is the first to arrive and the last to leave, right? You always have an incident commander. So when... I'm gonna ask you fire guy, when the big fire scene starts to break down and the battalion chief is no longer needed and he leaves, do they do a transfer of command on the radio then? So the engine... The ladder and the engine that's still there doing mop up, do they then assume command on the radio to go back down?
Ron Otterbacher:
There you go.
Bill Godfrey:
Mostly they do not.
Pete Kelting:
Podcast part two.
Bill Godfrey:
Well, and you know, for those that that continue to have doubts that the process is ICS compliant, take it from a fellow fire and EMS person, it is fully ICS compliant. It has been reviewed and approved three separate occasions over the period of 10, 12 years. It's been reviewed three times by the NIMS Integration Center and approved as ICS compliant. It's part of four DHS-certified curriculum. It's licensed for use and another dozen DHS-certified curriculums. It's been endorsed by the National Tactical Officers Association as the national standard. And you know, like what Adam said earlier, it's not the way. We would never be so arrogant to come out and say it's the way, but it is a standard. And a national standard to ascribe to and it's compliant with all of the things that it needs to be. And sometimes I think we have to kind of dig down and go, "why are we throwing up these objections? What's the real..." The old adage of you have to ask why five times to get to what the real objection is. Why are you really objecting to this? Because it's not the terminology thing. There's something else behind it.
Ron Otterbacher:
And I think the key thing to remember after we get through all the minutiae, it works.
Bill Godfrey:
And it saves time, which is the point. The whole... And we've talked about it, we've talked about the fact that this isn't the way we... The way we do it today is not the way we did it, you know, in 2013 when we first started doing it. We've learned. We found some ways to do things faster and we continue to make those adjustments as we find ways to do things faster, get the bad guy neutralized faster and get the injured off the scene into a hospital. So let's go around final thoughts, Adam.
Adam Pendley:
Again, I just want to really foot stomp the idea that it's about getting things done quickly. And I think keeping it simple, who's doing what job early on, on a fast-moving, rapidly expanding event is the way to do it faster.
Bill Godfrey:
Peter.
Pete Kelting:
Keeps it focused. You're dialed in, you're tracking on what you need downrange to support your contact teams.
Bill Godfrey:
Ron.
Ron Otterbacher:
Let's me know who to call when I need something, who's got the responsibility.
Bill Godfrey:
I think the whole point here is what we've been saying is to keep it simple. Keep it as simple as you can. There's enough stress already on those responders that are in these roles. You know, we didn't even really talk about cognitive overload, but you can absolutely get overloaded. And the more we can simplify the process, the easier we can make the play for the team, the more likely it is the team is gonna execute that play and get the touchdown. With that, I wanna say thank you to our producer Karla Torres and if you have not liked or subscribed to the podcast, please do so. Whether you consume podcasts on one of the many podcast sources or whether you listen to us on YouTube, please subscribe, like the channel and pass it on to the other people you work with. Let 'em know. If you have questions like this listener did, please send 'em in. You can send 'em in to info@c3pathways.com, info@c3pathways.com, and just mark it as a podcast question and your topic may be coming up soon. With that, till next time, stay safe.